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Author Topic:   1001 hp for 2003 Bugatti Veyron!
Captain_Crustacean
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Posts: 305
From: United Kingdom
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posted October 07, 2001 02:31 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain_Crustacean   Click Here to Email Captain_Crustacean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Thats nothing compared to that porsche I was on about.
The year 1975
1100bhp
0-100mph yes 100mph not km/h = 3 seconds
0-200mph = 13 seconds
calculated top speed = 260mph.
That was back in 1975.
If you can 1100bhp in 1975 to run in a race car, why can't you get 2000 bhp now.
The internal combustion engine is coming to an end anyway. Think about it, When the car was first invented it could only do about 20mph, from that to 1965 we went to 200mph in the shape of the Ford GT40, from there to today we've only increased by about 40mph. I think a new powersource is needed.

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If I had a fast car I would be dead.

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vahe
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From: glendale, ca. usa
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posted October 07, 2001 03:42 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for vahe   Click Here to Email vahe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Although I doubt the internal combustion engine's life is anywhere near an end, it does pose an interesting question. What is a better alternative to the I.C. engine in terms of more efficient, less limited power output?
Hmmm...this probably belongs in the "technical section"

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kingfisher
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posted October 08, 2001 04:19 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kingfisher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
The McLaren's records stand as production car figures, rather than tuned cars. In the same way, the Veyron will be the world's fastest and most powerful production car (not some beast created by an aftermarket tuner).

So the historical and psychological aspects are part of the Bugatti's appeal.

On the other hand, while many race cars (and other machines) can produce incredible amounts of power, they aren't constrained by consumer, noise, and environmental regulations. The Veyron must meet these criteria, which is what makes it a technological marvel (not to mention its everyday driveability).

As for the internal combustion engine, the application of new materials and technologies seem to be providing a new lease on life. If you consider the history of science, it has indeed been surpassed by other sources of power generation, but those methods are too impractical and expensive to park in your garage.

It will, however, be fascinating to see how fuel cells, hydrogen, and electrics play out in the future. Can the big breakthroughs be made to provide performance?

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Captain_Crustacean
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posted October 08, 2001 06:26 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain_Crustacean   Click Here to Email Captain_Crustacean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
By todays standards the 917 could probably be road legal, If you put skinnier tyre's on it, which you could because if tyres could handle that back in the seventies, I think slightly skinnier ones could do today. The ride height is probably legal, all you need to do is stick some Registration Plates on it, take a look at the roadgoing porsche 962.
Anyway, thats not the point that I was making. If you consider they could get 1100bhp to run reliably for le-mans back in the seventies, it should be pretty much straight forward nowadays.
I still think the I.C engine is coming to an end, for a start my point earlier and the way emissions laws are heading, we need something else. I put forward the gas turbine. This has already been in the form of the chrysler turboflite (crap name). But that was back in the 50's and sixties. Just think what we could do now. Consider this, A gas turbine engine can be more powerful, cleaner, and more economical(I think). And they can easily be made small and compact to fit in a car. One Problem, It doesn't sound as nice.

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If I had a fast car I would be dead.

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kingfisher
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posted October 09, 2001 02:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for kingfisher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Rover toyed with the gas turbine, too. They couldn't get it to work right. I don't think it provided the same bang-for-the-buck energy-wise, so most companies directed their R&D resources to refining combustion.

I don't think the combustion engine is coming to a halt because we're not making huge leaps in speed comparable to the early 20th century. The development focus shifted in the 1970s to combining efficiency with power. Emissions regulations aren't really going anywhere right now, and I suspect they won't move much further in the near future. Indeed, a 2001 Ford Focus at full bore produces less emissions than a 1972 Ford sitting with the ignition turned off.

There's just nothing as economically viable as the combustion engine. It will take a dramatic shift in both fuel supplies and infrastructure for this to change.

As for the 917, I don't think that car would have much of a chance at street legality - now or then (noise, emissions, safety, equipment). It's easy to generate huge amounts of power without emissions and noise constraints ... otherwise I'm quite sure the Veyron's power rating could be stratospheric.

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Captain_Crustacean
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posted October 11, 2001 10:55 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain_Crustacean   Click Here to Email Captain_Crustacean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Yeah, I remember seeing a program about the rover, it was supposedly quite quick. Anyway, I think some of the 917's would be legal, considering somebody legalised a F3 car for the road, I think it would be pretty much straight forward. Theres a questions for all you car buffs. What car was legalised for the road. I think it was a F3 car. Actually, I know it had a Lola engine which he removed so it might have been an Indy car or something.

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If I had a fast car I would be dead.

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CultMaster
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From: Manchester UK
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posted October 11, 2001 11:13 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for CultMaster   Click Here to Email CultMaster     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
That's a very interesting point about the speed of vehicles increasing by only 40 mph since we reached 200mph. My view is that between since the 200mph mark was reached, we have left speed alone for a bit, and concentrated more on developing equipment for the car, and economic friendliness. Also more and more regulations have been invented so manufacturers have had to adapt to meet them.
Now, instead of pushing up the mph mark, it's the mpg mark that sets the standard for most cars. (Obviously, people such as ourselves don't look for that in a car), but in the real world practically comes first, and manufacturers, (with the exception of supercar manufacturers) no longer compete for speed, but instead for things like mpg and emissions.

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kingfisher
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posted October 12, 2001 04:12 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for kingfisher     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
I can't imagine how an F3-based car could be legalized for road use - especially in the EU or USA in the last 10 years or so.

How could tune the engine to meet noise limits? And side-impact requirements? What about the 3.5 mph bump standard? And emissions - on an F3 engine? And then there's the insurance troubles ...

I'm not saying it's impossible, but I think it'd be VERY difficult.

The 917 - were it produced today - would have 2 main troubles: noise limits and emissions. It might meet crash tests, though; and various road components would be simple to fit.

On the other hand, you can get registration and road insurance for OLD 917s provided the model had been certified in some jurisdiction in the past. I know it wasn't in North America and Porsche didn't homologate it, but perhaps some tuner company in Europe?

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vahe
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From: glendale, ca. usa
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posted October 15, 2001 10:14 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vahe   Click Here to Email vahe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Interesting link below. Perhaps a bit too optimistic, but it sure sounds very promising.
http://www.geocities.com/CapeCanaveral/1614/there.

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vahe
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posted October 15, 2001 10:18 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for vahe   Click Here to Email vahe     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Heck I'll just paste the whole damn thang
Ceramic Engine
An information site on the ceramic engine based on Si2 technology
"Everybody says something is impossible. Then when it happens they say it was inevitable."

Updated 07-28-1999


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Background

History
In november 1937 Herman Wurster climbed into his Messerschmidt 109 V13 prototype [picture 32k, picture 16k]. The fuselage was as clean as possible, the engine a 1650 hp monster. Herman zoomed up and established a new low-altitude speed record for airplanes : 611 kph (379 mph). It was a historic day because since then no significant improvements have been made in internal combustion engines.
Improvements This is a strong statement. The internal combustion engine is the basic component of a car, and car manufacture is a major industry. New "improved" car models are a traditional way of boosting car sales. Is it all hype without substance? Not entirily, but close.

You will note that when a new car is released a lot of effort is spent on "improvements" to road holding, electric windows, ashtrays and the like.
The really important features will be mentioned as an afterthought, almost like the small print on a car insurance contract. For your information they are (not ordered according to importance):

• fuel cost
• fuel availablity
• pollution
• reliability
• maintenance
• safety

Present combustion engines fail on all points except fuel cost and availabilty (note however that from the year 2002 on, things will change and fuel will be the major problem). The cause is with the materials used and it can't be fixed with cosmetic changes.

Problems Present combustion engines are made of metal: steel or aluminium. There is really no choice. The internal combustion engine chamber is a hostile environment of extreme temperatures, corrosive gases, continuous concussions and high speed movement.
While metals can succesfully withstand the stresses up to a point there are three main drawbacks to the material:

• Limited heat tolerance. The components exposed to heat must be cooled or they will melt.
• High friction coefficient. Moving components must be lubricated to reduce wear and tear.
• High expansion coefficient. All components must have free play to allow for expansion

The result is great inefficiency, a proliferation of peripherals (pumps and pipes), limited reliability and high pollution.
Why hasn't there been an effort to develop a better solution?

Too easy
It wasn't necessary.

• Fuel has always been ridiculously cheap, therefore engines did not need to be fuel-efficient.
• Pollution was at most a local phenomenon, a nuissance until the wind blew it away.
• Curiously, reliablity has always been a problem. This has been solved by the simple expedient of educating the public. You know that a car will only last so long, after that breakdowns are expected.

Changing times

There were warnings about dwindling oil supplies as far back as 50 years ago. However at that time there was no pressing need to do something about it.

Problems do not go away by themselves and this is what we are faced with now:

• Oil shortage (probably from 2002 onwards).
• Carbon dioxide pollution associated with global warming.
• Carcinogens pollution.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

today
Alternatives What are the alternatives to the internal combustion engine?
Research has gone in different directions

• A fuel-cell electrical engine combination is very clean. Fuel is anything (within reason) that can be oxidized. Efficiency is close to 100% and the waste product is water. Although at first glance this looks like the ideal solution there are problems: A fuel cell is prohibitively heavy. The largest mobile one in current use is a 300 kW, 8000 kg version, which is suitable for a truck but not for a private car. However, research continues.
• A solar cell electrical engine is the cleanest you can get. But if you want a reasonable 100 kW power, you need 1000 square meters of collecting surface in strong sunshine. In practice such vehicles are built as light and as large as possible. The result is a dangerously flimsy contraption that does not fit on any road or bogs down traffic.
• Steam-powered turbine engines fueled by coal are reasonably efficient but not clean and the condenser makes it prohibitively large. There will not be a coal shortage for a long time, but coal is notoriously polluting.
• Other power source for cars are usually inventive, sometimes amusing and even dangerous. They include inertial force storage devices, nuclear powered cars and the famous car that runs on water - as long as external energy is supplied. But they are more a sign of desperation than a serious effort at mobility.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Si2
New material A new ceramic material has recently become available. The material is silicon in the form of Si2.Silicon is one of the most abundant elements on earth. Silicon technology has already come of age: the material is used in glass, transistors, turbine blades. It is ideal for internal combustion engines because:
• it does not melt easily even at high temperature
• it has a low friction coefficient
• it has a low expansion coefficient
• it has low thermal conductivity
• it is extremely hard
• it is relatively light
• it does not corrode

These properties, although desired for an engine, mean that the material is difficult to work with.

Si2 is similar in appearance to the ferrite known by electronic engineers for making transformers. When it has been worked into an engine block it is dark-gray with a surface that feels as smooth as wet soap to the touch.

Tools The (patented) process of working the extremely hard material is similar to that of making a ferrite transformer. Si2 powder is compressed at high pressure, sintered and cured. This is the time-consuming part of the manufacture, although not very labour-intensive.
The engine block is bored with a vibrating diamond drill: also a patented process. This takes all of 15 seconds, which compares well with working a metal engine block. The accuracy of the drilling process is 2 micron, the free play between piston and cylinder is the same size. This means that piston rings are unnecessary and indeed unwanted, and new piston shapes can be tried.

Properties Some properties of the ceramic engine:
• no lubrication
• no cooling
• +150 % more power
• neglegible wear and tear
• -75% lower fuel consumption
• no pollution
• -50% less weight for same physical size (which means -80% for same power output)

Incredible? Let's put it into words.
We have an engine here that has 2.5 times the power of a metal engine of the same size using 1/4 of the fuel. It never uses oil or water and will run almost forever without servicing.
During its lifetime it will cause no pollution except minimal CO2 emission: nitrous oxide and other polutants are not measurable.
To top it all the engine reaches operating temperature in seconds after startup, again minimizing transient polllution.

With these characteristics it must be very expensive, right?

Cost As silicon is abundant, the basic material cost is low.
Working the material is more expensive than working metal. Instead of melting and casting a process of pressurising powder, sintering and curing is used, which takes time.
After that, boring and finishing is easier and faster for the ceramic engine than for a metal one.
For the final finished product the ceramic engine has the advantage again as there are no radiator, fans, pipes and pumps to be installed.
The result?
An engine that is 25% cheaper to manufacture than a metal engine of the same size with 60% less power.
Note however that the price of the engine is only the minor part of a car price: an advanced engine like that of a BMW328 costs about $1500 ...

Status A batch of 10 ceramic engines of 1 liter (61 cubic inch), 400 kW (500 horses) capacity has been running a traffic simulation test program, including (German) highway driving at full speed for 10 hours.
The longest-running engine is now going for 20,000 hours without signs of wear and tear. This translates to about 2,000,000 km ( 1,200,000 miles) of average driving without servicing.


References Continue with more details: go to ceramic engine details
A site about micro-cracks: ceramic engine downfalls
Scientific American report of March, 1998: The future of oil

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e the whole damn thang

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LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv
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posted October 15, 2001 01:33 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv   Click Here to Email LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
ya thats a lot of information

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JON

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LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv
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posted October 15, 2001 01:36 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv   Click Here to Email LamborghiniDiablo6.0sv     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
and it seems that i was on my "break" from th board at the time that this thread began.... so in terms for the actual thread topic.

I love bugatti's production line of sports cars...... weather i will EVER see on is another story, but you never know

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JON

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Captain_Crustacean
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From: United Kingdom
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posted October 18, 2001 01:29 AM     Click Here to See the Profile for Captain_Crustacean   Click Here to Email Captain_Crustacean     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Can I just say Wow. I only just skimmed through it but if all the parts I saw a true, Why are we still using normal engines. If this is implemented, I think this would be the biggest change to the I.C engine since valves were invented.
About the F3 car, It was deafenitly a single seat thing, like a F3, formula renault, formula vauxhall etc etc. It had cycle wings over the wheels and small lights which looked stupid inbetween the wheels and the bodywork.
Also, So have some of the 917's been homologated for the road yet, I know some of the old ferrari's of the same period have. I prefere the looks of the old 917 anyway.

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If I had a fast car I would be dead.

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alex
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From: London, UK
Registered: Oct 2000

posted October 26, 2001 08:00 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for alex   Click Here to Email alex     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Just wrote up a few things on the Veyron:
http://www.fantasycars.com/1/2001/Bugatti_Frankfurt/bugatti_frankfurt.html

-alex

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Lamborghini-GTS
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Posts: 227
From: 3rd rock from the sun
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posted November 07, 2001 12:18 PM     Click Here to See the Profile for Lamborghini-GTS     Edit/Delete Message   Reply w/Quote
Wow! 1001HP & coming out in '03! A monkey would be stupid enough 2 nitro it.What HP would it have if u took of the 4 turbochargers? huh? about 970?

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550 horses behind your head

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